Friday, June 19, 2009

Certain Mystery

Our drive for order, meaning, adequacy and control creates a theology that is neatly organized, everything in its place, packaged with a nice bow on top. Yet, when the suffering, unpredictability and mystery of life rips our package apart we may find the box was empty all the time. What we thought were nicely organized facts about life and God were built upon an illusion of certainty. So, we are left with an empty box, the bow and wrapping paper on the floor, and nothing certain.

Science over reaches its usefulness when it implies that one can know God by knowing facts, laws and principles. Religion oversteps its usefulness when it claims certainty about that which cannot be known for certain. Both disciplines are using symbols of language to describe mystery. In the end, both have confused the finger pointing at the moon for the moon itself. God will not be kept in a box of certainty.

"Nicholas (of Cusa) noted that, rooted in holy uncertainty, we are left with approximations. He says that our language for God is like a polygon made of many tiny straight lines passing for a true circle. If we look closely at our reasonings, we find that for all their brilliance, in the end, they come up short. We may be fooled by the illusion of knowledge, but we remain ignorant, and this failure of understanding allows us to be religious. The holy person is the one who has broken through the self-deception and knows how much she doesn’t know. The point in thinking is to reach the far edge of understanding and to stand there in wonder.”

“Since we are only approximately correct when we speak about spiritual matters, the part that remains unknown and unspoken gives our words and ideas the emptiness they require. If there is no respect for that edge of illusion, then we are left with literalism and fundamentalism, scourges of the spiritual life. This is one of those basic ideas on which religion stands or falls: Do we pretend to know more than we can know? Or do we admit to our ignorance and build an intelligent edifice on that lack of knowledge?”

-Thomas Moore “The Soul’s Religion”

So, where does that leave us if we realize what we thought were facts about life and God were really rooted in deeper mysteries, and perhaps fantasies? Hopefully, a place where we can reexamine our worldview. But more fully, right where you always were: On a ball spinning around the sun on the edge of a galaxy with no net under the tightrope. Nothing certain and nothing guaranteed. Humble and in awe of the chance to be conscious and aware for this brief glimpse of life we get to experience; All of us doing the best we can to make sense of our life, our world and our universe; Tangled up in a beautiful, creative mystery.

13 comments:

steve s said...

You don't have to answer this...

Sometimes you use quotes of Jesus from the Bible to support your position but seem to stay away from ones sure as Him saying that He gave His life as a ransom for many. What is you thought about who Jesus is?

Roger said...

Steve,

I don't know if I really want to support any position. I find things that express my experience better than I could and use them, or see different pieces of philosophy and religious writings that seem to be parallel and make the connection. It's all very fluid to me.

Who is Jesus? I guess the best answer I can give is: I don't know. Which, in my opinion, is about the most reasonable position to take given the evidence at hand.

Perhaps we have to go a level deeper to ask: What is the Bible?

What would you say?

steve s said...

I think now that I would say the Bible is a Book that points us to our need for a Savior for our wickedness toward God and one another and God's provision of that Savior.

Roger said...

So would I be right in saying that for you the Bible is basically an expression of a theory of atonement?

steve s said...

Jesus said that Moses wrote of Christ and in fact that all of the scriptures testify of Him.

Then Jesus came and said that He came to give His life as a ransom for many and the writtings of the apostles speak that His blood shed and Him hanging on a Cross did something for us before God (Matt 26:28, Eph 1:13, 1 Pet 1:2, 1 Jn 1:7, Heb 10:19, Rev 1:5, etc.)

So, I'll stay away from the word "atonement" and leave the above as what I would say the message of the Bible centers around. Pretty heavy and sobering ones as I was reading them BTW.

Roger said...

Steve,

You choose to emphasize a particular group of passages. I choose to emphasize a different group of passages. I choose to look at the Bible as a mystical/poetical book, and it seems you see it as a book of legal action (Jesus came to shed his blood to ransom His people by satisfying the legal requirements of God.) You choose to emphasize atonement and I choose to emphasize transformation. This is why I asked what kind of book you believed the Bible was. We have different opinions, and that's okay with me.

I have no desire to persuade you of my point of view. It saddens me though that you have to reduce what Jesus did down to a theory of atonement because it discounts his whole life and the transformative process he taught, and forces you to separate your psychological and emotional health from your relationship with God. I think there are better ways to live. So again, if it is working for you, I am happy for you.

I will post a few thoughts on my view of Jesus and the Bible after I get back from our trip.

Have a great day!

steve s said...

Hope you have a good trip.

Seems like if the scriptures about the blood being shed were all ignored, or even cut out, there would be no basis to even talk about transformation since there would be no assurance that God even gave a rip about us (and you really have become a legalist).

On the other hand if all the scriptures concerning transformation were taken out a person could still rest assured that God was with him.

So it's not a matter of what is being choosen to emphasize but rather what scriptures allow the Bible to have any meaning for anyone at all.

Roger said...

Steve,

IMO any assurance you desire is an illusion anyway. Nothing is "sure" in this life and I would suggest that is the purpose of religion: providing a system of thinking and community to try to provide security where there simply is none. It goes back to the two questions in this post:

Do we pretend to know more than we can know? Or do we admit to our ignorance and build an intelligent edifice on that lack of knowledge?”

If you want to know if God gives a rip about you, breathe in and breathe out. Gaze up at the stars in wide-eyed wonder at its immensity and beauty. Breathe in fresh mountain air. Drink a cold beer on a hot day. Enjoy a cigar. Watch how your fingers move. Ponder a flower or a tree. I could go on forever! Love is everywhere! (Enough of my hippie talk.)

This conversation will probably go back to our different views of the Bible at this point. What is it? How is it best used? How do we choose to interpret? What worldview are we interpreting from? So, IMO it is very much about what passages we choose to emphasize and our overall worldview (you can go back to my posts on Integral Theory to see why it matters).

I think I've said this before, but if all God has the power to do is satisfy a legal requirement so I can leave my "shitty" life on earth and go to heaven, He is a God I don't care to know.

I suspect Jesus was talking about something mystical, a deeper reality from which we can live life abundantly. Quite honestly I haven't been able to make sense of Him any other way.

Have a good one!

Roger said...

Steve,

In re-reading your last paragraph, let me ask you something: Is it possible for the text to have different meanings? Where does meaning come from? What factors are involved in finding meaning?

steve s said...

I would 1st look at the source of information that we are dealing with.

To look at life and say, "I know that there is a God that gives a rip because of... mountain air, fingers moving" etc. would not be consistnet for all people at all times.

For instance storms that kill people, earthquakes that destroy things, people who have had their loved ones die in concentration camps, (I met one recently. Not world war 2 but more recently a Bosnian taken by Serbs), starvation, cancer, etc.. It really is a shitty life for many people living on the earth. We are pretty spoiled and have the luxury of looking at the higher levels of Maslow's Hierarchy of needs.

So to look at things of nature, natural revelation, is very confusing and subjective.

So if God is a God of love we need Him to specifically show us. The Cross is what does that. The Muslims don't have that in their book. The Jews in a hidden manner. Nor any other religion. The Bible sums it up in a way no other book does.

So that is the unique message of the Bible which is pretty well summed up in John 3:16.

Roger said...

Steve,

We'll have to agree to disagree. There are many stories of people who have chosen a path of peace and joy during difficult times. In fact, Jesus lived during difficult times.

IMO life is subjective, so I can embrace the confusing and be comfortable with "not knowing". I can hold my "truth" loosely knowing that its just my perspective. I think its being honest about life and embracing mystery. Like I said in the post nothing is certain.

I am glad you have a theology/philosophy that works for you.

steve s said...

I think that this has been a good banter back and forth. I hope that you understand that I am not trying to be antagonistic in my points. It is with respect that I have presented my challanges.

So thanks for the discussion.

Have a good weekend. I work most of it but will find some time Sat evening for a little fun.

Roger said...

No antagonism sensed here Steve, just people sharing different points of view....